Joe

Hello! Welcome to another episode of The Caring Instinct. This week with our guest is Anna Hobbs, who is a teacher, ran a school in Asia, self-directed school against the backdrop of a very strict culture of schooling and created a very free self-directed environment which a lot of the parents kind of flocked towards. So we find out a little bit more about her journey in in alternative education within Asia and in England.

Olga

And homeschooled her three kids. Ohh, I just loved this one. I can't pick which was my favourite bed.

Joe

Come and have a listen and we hope you enjoy.

Olga

And listen out for how they shared chores when all your kids were at home, Three kids at home, that was my favourite bit easily.

Joe

Welcome, Anna.

Anna

Thank you. Lovely to be here.

Joe

So a little bit about. We know each other. We met at East Kent Sudbury Home Educating Centre, I think met with our interest in alternative education. I was fairly new into that world. You've been there for quite a while. So tell us a bit more about your journey into alternative education.

Anna

Yeah, OK. Well, I guess it probably started when I was a child. I'm a third culture kid, so I grew up in Asia, spent almost half my life there actually. And because of that my mum home educated me and my brother and my sister. So we were used to that sort of lifestyle, but it was out of necessity. Then I would say there weren't any international schools where we were living. We did school at home with my mum and then in the afternoons we would sort of go to the local school and join in with things like sports. And so it started then really, because when I came back to England at age 14, I went into mainstream school there and so had a a taste of mainstream school in the UK, which was a big shock. But I sort of carried with me that real appreciation, I think, for the home education that I'd experience with my mum and and I think that the biggest thing that I sort of took from it was the closeness that I had with my mum. I just loved being able to hang out with her and my brother and my sister. And I just thought when I had my own kids, I thought that's what I want for my kids, You know, I want that togetherness. I want that freedom to play. I mean, we played for hours and hours every day, sort of. We'd just go out in the afternoon and come back for tea time and all sorts of risky adventurous play. And we didn't have a

Anna

phone for mum to check, you know, where we were or anything that we would get into all sorts of... climb down manholes and on the roofs of buildings. And that has really sort of influenced the direction I've taken sort of an education for my own children and then later on in in actually founding a a democratic school.

Joe

So your mum didn't kind of just recreate school in the home. It was a lot different. There was a lot of freedom. There was a lot about relationship being together.

Anna

Yeah, it was. It was much more structured than I've done with my children, much more structured. She was a trained primary school teacher and we did have a set curriculum, but actually the sit down work time was probably, I don't know, two hours a day and the rest was was all just time to play, time to do whatever we wanted. Lots of sort of reading time. With my mum, she would read to us every day. We would do a lot of cooking. Yeah, yeah, it was. It was a really precious experience.

Olga

It sounds amazing. It made me think one of my reasons for conventional schooling is as a mum, I'd much rather be someone who sort of comforts them after school, makes them hot chocolate and plunges on the sofa to watch a Disney movie, then someone who pushes them towards GCSEs. I'm very happy with the pushing bit to be outsourced to teachers. I'm very grateful for the job the teachers are doing with it and I don't have to do it. I can be a haven at home. Do you feel this tension with your own children or when you were home schooled and potentially your mum was maybe preparing you to go back to school in England? And if you do, how do you straddle it?

Anna

I think sometimes to be totally honest, I was jealous of parents who could just send their kids off to school and not have any responsibility for that side of things and be able to trust other people to do that. And then they could be the fun, do the fun stuff at home and like you said, you know, snuggle up with the hot chocolates at the end of the day. And sometimes I was jealous of that, definitely because the responsibility is quite big to carry and especially when it's not necessarily you know, the the norm where you are. Some people aren't in a community with lots of other people, doing it can be quite isolating and the responsibility can can be heavy. I think the way around that is to to find people and who are like minded and doing similar things and actually support each other. It's sort of creating a village, isn't it, around you of people who are all sort of walking the same path together, even though it might look very different in their different families. We have got something really important in common. And I actually have experienced both sides Olga, because in the last year all three of my kids have gone into mainstream education. And so I've got an 18 year old, a 16 year old and a 10 year old. And my 16 year old daughter, she wanted to, she asked to go into mainstream education because she's very academic, she's quite high achiever, She likes to push herself, She's very self motivated and she wanted to get a whole portfolio of GCSEs because she had a goal of getting into a really prestigious music school for sixth form and she knew that to do that this is what she needed. These are the hoops she had to jump through. So she sort of, you know, instigated that herself. And so we've walked that journey with her. And then my eldest went into college at age 16 because, again, he wanted to go to university to do graphic design, and he knew that he needed to get a qualification to do that. And then my youngest, who's 10, went into mainstream a little bit, kicking and screaming, wasn't too keen on the idea. But I was very aware that at this point he was the only one at home with me and it was too isolating

Anna

really for him. He was craving more social interaction. I was craving more social interaction. And we just got to the point in our lives really where, you know, I needed to also explore some training and things for myself. The difference now, it being what you're describing, being that person that picks them up at the end of the day and and having that time at the end of the day is very significant. I think it it hasn't changed our relationship, but it's sort of changed my role quite a lot. That's been a process I think, of letting go of quite a lot of things, trusting all the foundations that I've put in to them, trusting that you know they will lead to their their education. Because that's sort of the the thrust of self-directed education really is that they have the autonomy to lead with what they want to learn, how they want to learn it, who they want to learn it with as much as possible. It's not always 100% possible to do that with your circumstances and things, but that's what they've been used to. And seeing them in mainstream, it's a big shift. But actually what I've seen is they've carried on with that attitude towards learning. They haven't lost that. And I think it it's reminded me of how important the family is, You know, that family unit and actually what you're investing into them in the home, whether it's in the evenings and after school and holidays or whether it's all day, is that is still the most important thing I think.

Joe

But it's such a leap of faith doing what you've done with your children as well, and  seeing the fruit be really clear at the end. It requires a lot of patience, I imagine and a lot like I said that faith because you don't necessarily see it straight away, but whereas if you were in mainstream, it's almost like, ah OK, it must be happening because we're kind of making them do it, but underneath it we don't know what's happening really. But this is a a more patient way. Put in your faith in the relationship. I find it incredible that they go so many different ways as well still.

Anna

Yeah, it is. It is a leap of faith isn't it? I think having children is a bit like that. You you do best, don't you, as parents and and you you trust that they will grow and they will develop and you've just got to provide that environment, that love, that attachment and that security that they need and they do grow somehow, miraculously and they do, they do learn.

Joe

Yeah, it happens.

Olga

Ohh, I'm curious. You mentioned that you did a lot of cooking with your mom and one of the things that we are doing is we've got a course Housework for Children. We noticed that a lot of kids nowadays do not do a lot around the house at all and this is kind of the new norm. School takes a huge chunk of time And then there's video games, there's friends. Between our generation and our kids generation this involvement in their household has come down from 80 to 90% to just about 25%.

Anna

Wow.

Olga

Yeah, both in the UK and the US. So we've created a course about how to get kids into the housework in an empowering way and free frim shaming and nagging. And I wonder what has your experience been with all three kids at home and like this aspect, because this is a huge part of learning about life, how to run a household basically with all that it involves.

Anna

Wow, that's really exciting that you're running a course from that. When all three kids were at home, we shared out the housework pretty evenly, really, even down to the evening meals. We had a rota of who was cooking. This was obviously once my oldest two were you know, able to do that. But even the youngest one had to help out his brother or sister when it was their night for cooking when they were little. It just started with basic things like you put dirty washing in the washing basket and then you can help me separate, separate out the darks and the lights and we'll put it in the washing machine. And I think, I think learning is happening constantly all the time. And so if you sort of can step out-of-the-box of this is learning and this isn't learning, then everything becomes important, isn't it? And that's one of the beauties of home education is that you have the time and the space to do that and it's not at the end of the day when you're exhausted and they may be exhausted and ratty from school. So we had sort of... Oh, we tried various things over the years, but we've had sort of big things on the kitchen wall where you know everybody's got their jobs and they tick off when they've done it for the day. And I remember having somebody come and visit us and and stay for a week. They were working in our school for a little bit. They lived with us and and they said at the end of the week, the biggest thing I I've taken away from this week is how you guys work so much together. It's not just me sort of being responsible for the housework. All of us were doing things and taking on the responsibility of the house

Anna

and they didn't do it perfectly. You know, sometimes the jobs were not, were not done brilliantly and sometimes, you know, they'd suck things up with the Hoover and then the Hoover wouldn't work for a week. And it wasn't a perfect, you know, lovely picture. It definitely wasn't that. But we did, we did all take responsibility and we did try to make it fun. So we would put music on when it was sort of the time of day when we were all doing some jobs and a lot of dancing happens in our house with music. And even in our school that we were running in Asia, the time of day when we all did chores, we didn't have cleaners. So even the toilets and things were cleaned by staff and children together, we would put on music, really sort of uplifting music that people can sing to and can move to and dance to, and it just brings the whole atmosphere of, you know, joy and participation. Everyone's busy and everyone's getting on with it. My background is in music, so I'm really passionate about the power of music. I've definitely seen it. It's worth in terms of doing things like jobs around the house.

Olga

Definitely. I sometimes say to my son, we need to tidy and he goes, ugh, and I say 2 songs, Let's choose one song each. When they're finished, we're finished because it's never going to be perfect. Yeah, but we're just gonna do a little bit. And then he's like mum, you've chosen the longest song possible.

Anna

Very clever.

Olga

He sees throughvit though. I love it.

Joe

What was it like founding a school?

Anna

I know the hardest thing I think I've ever done, yeah, but also the best. I felt so unqualified to do it. I didn't have a background in running schools or school management or anything like that. I just had experience of home educating my own children. But in the city that we were living in, in Asia, well maybe I'll go back a tiny bit actually to how it started. Because I think that sort of, Yeah, yeah the story is quite poignant when we're thinking about children and how they learn and things. So when we moved out to Asian, my eldest was really struggling with the adjustment, couldn't communicate with anyone because he didn't have the language was missing his friends in England. And every night he would sort of cry himself to sleep and I'd just lie next to him and hold him and feel it, you know. And as a parent all that guilt comes up and you think, what have I done? But he woke up one day. We must have been there maybe two months. He woke up and he said, mum, I've just had the best idea and I was like, oh OK, you know, what is it? thinking it was going to be something about food because it's normally about food with him. And he said, ohh, well you know, I want, I want to make friends. And I said yeah. And he said, but I can't because I can't speak the language. And I said, yeah, I understand. And he said, well, what I was thinking was, I love playing with Lego and you don't need any language for Lego. So I was wondering if maybe I could start some Lego clubs in our house. And I said, well, that's a great idea. That's fantastic. And at that time where we were living, Lego hadn't sort of come in yet. The locals didn't really know what Lego was, but we'd shipped a whole load of my son's Lego over from England. So I said, OK, So what are you gonna do? How are you gonna, you know, find people and stuff. And he said, well, I thought about that. I'm going to make a sign that says Lego Club and I'm gonna stick it on one of my wooden swords and I'm gonna go downstairs and just stand outside our apartment block with the sign and an arrow and see if anyone comes with me. And me and my husband were like, ohh, gosh, this could be awful. What if nobody comes? And but we just thought, you know, he's really passionate about this and he's come up with it himself. And it was a problem that he was, you know, he was seeing this, this problem. He needs friends and he can't communicate and he'd come up with a solution. So we thought, right, we need to just support him with this and see where it goes.

Anna

So he went down to we, I think we were living on the 4th floor. He went down to the ground floor and we were sort of peering out the balcony window to see what was going to happen. And he stood there with this sign. And literally about 20 minutes later he came up the stairs with a group of about 15 local kids. They didn't know what they were coming to. He couldn't explain it. But he sort of, you know, I showed them all in and he showed them all his Lego on the floor. And these kids were just in heaven with it. They just, you know, swarmed on this pile of Lego and he was showing them things he'd made and they had a whale of a time. And the the short story of that is that sort of gathered a lot of traction in our city and people started hearing about it and asking him to go to different places and run Lego clubs and he.

Olga

Amazing! He was 7-7 at the time, quite a mature, 7 year old but still only 7. And so he was taking his box of Lego from England to these different places and running clubs for like 40-50 kids. And through that

Anna

we got to know a load of families and they started asking us so much about the way we educated our children and the way we were parenting them as well, which is very sort of different to the culture there. And eventually they said we want this for our children so can you open a school?

Joe

Ohh so you were asked to do it.

Anna

We were asked to do it. So it was from a need really that had become apparent. And I said no. The first few times when they asked me, I just said no, I have no, no idea how to do this. And also I hadn't even at that point, I hadn't even found out about democratic education. I was just sort of basically unschooling our children. Eventually I said OK, I'll look into it. So I researched and did loads of reading for about 3 months, just really got obsessive about it and I thought, my goodness, there is an actual way to have a school, have to have a community where the children are being completely self-directed in their learning and I'd never heard of this before. And I started reading about Summerhill School in the UK, Sudbury Valley School in the States, and there are various others in Europe as well. And I just thought, oh, this, this is it. Because not only can the children direct their learning, they can be in a community and they can actually learn how to do life together, which is what it's all about, isn't it? It's not about being little islands everywhere, but it's about being together. And I got really excited and I thought, OK, I'm going to see if this works. But it was trial and error. Every day the biggest roller coaster

Anna

my husband and I have ever been on. We said OK, we're just doing an open evening to see if anybody is interested. So we did this open evening in a hotel meeting room and then got to the time and we had people queuing down the street to come into the, yeah, come into the meeting room. We couldn't actually fit people in. Because there were so many families that were desperate for this and we just thought Oh my goodness, this is such a big need here. You know, you probably know a little bit about education in Asia, but typically it's very, very formal. There is not really much choice or freedom in it and it's not very holistic either. It's very performance based. So this was completely different to anything they had experienced. But it came from my son sort of having the freedom to go with an idea and an interest that he had and also a solution to a problem that he'd seen. And I think that's something that hopefully he'll carry for life. He's just written his personal statement for university and in it he's put something about his love for graphic design and my love for problem solving and did.

Joe

Did he writre about Lego in it?

Anna

No. No, he didn't. No.

Olga

Not just the love, it's the experience. It's by, I don't know, 16-17, you know, I have done this incredible thing and it started  something like this. This is mind blowing and the culture we've both experienced there in Asia. To me, the big one was the idea of the right answer, and the teacher knows the right answer and my job as a student is to get it right. For the teacher, it doesn't matter what I think, it doesn't matter opinions. It's about getting it right to get that pass or that mark, is that your experience as well?

Anna

Yeah, definitely, definitely. And and the teachers are like God. In those schools, you never would question a teacher. You do exactly what they say. The discipline was very shame based, very, very shame based. Mistakes, you know, were not tolerated. It was not OK to make a mistake. Whereas we were sort of giving them the opposite environment of... Make a mistake!. That's the best way to learn.

Olga

How was it for them? Ohh please tell me how was it for for these kids at first?

Anna

I think a shock. It was a shock. And they took a long time to realise that we weren't an authoritative figure in that setting, that we were there. You know, we would keep them safe and we, you know, make sure all their needs are met, sort of those basic physical needs and everything. But we weren't there to tell them what to do and how to do it. And that took quite a lot of sort of unlearning for most of those local children. I remember a boy that had come from mainstream school and he was a little bit older, he was about 11 or 12 I think at the time. And he came in and he said, So where do I have to put my bag? And I was like, ohh, you can just choose, choose a corner that you'd like to put your bag in. People sort of, you know, commandeer their own little corners everywhere. And he looked at me and he just sort of froze. He didn't know what to do. And he, I said OK, let's go and find somewhere that you feel comfortable and you can sort of set your stuff up there. And it is a big shock I think for children. And probably in a similar way, but less dramatic in the UK as well, coming from a mainstream environment into a very self-directed environment. Because in a lot of ways, it's easy, isn't it, and comfortable to just let somebody else tell you what to do. And it can be really challenging and difficult and frustrating for some children as well to suddenly be given choices, especially if they're from a family where that's not done at home very much. And that was generally the case where we were living, that it was not just different to the education system, but it was different to the parenting style as well that we found there. So yeah, they took time to sort of unlearn

Anna

things and to realise we weren't going to tell them off. That was a big thing. When they did something wrong, they would immediately look scared and look at us as if we were going to, you know, shout at them or I mean some schools they were still using like a cane to punish kids. So it it took time. And the thing that sort of helped them transition the most was doing really relationship building activities. So we did quite a lot of camping, took them away and actually, you know, had really immersive time together, just the staff and the kids. We did sort of themed days, like we had a Star Wars day or we we regularly did things like massive water fights or paint fights and that sort of thing really deliberately to try and build the relationship because that is the foundation, I really believe for all learning and education to happen, it took time. It was time consuming, but the fruit was absolutely beautiful.

Joe

Yeah. Are you still in touch with some of the families?

Anna

Yeah, yeah, some of them, yeah. Actually a few of them are coming over next week for really a visit to London and things so hoping.

Joe

Are you going to meet?

Anna

A few of them, yeah, been difficult with the pandemic because they've not been able to travel very easily. But yeah, it's getting better now, so.

Olga

On that really speaks to that relationship that you're still in touch and seeing each other after all those years.

Anna

After, yeah, yeah.

Joe

Mainstream as well well, a lot of people, parents as well, don't see that value in the relationship. In fact they use it against children to try and get them to go the way they want them to go. I mean that's what time out does really well for young children. Yeah, it's saying if you're not doing what I want, then I'm going to take my presence away from you, basically. To use the presence against children and just to see that as a a founding, a starting place is so refreshing.

Anna

Umm, but it's a messy and sort of slow process. It's not clean cut. You can't sort of fit it into a box, can you? It's messy. So.

Joe

Messy with one, messy with two, even messier with three. With the school...

Anna

Messy with 50? Definitely.

Olga

Yeah. Oh for schools to appreciate the value of this relationship. That is really the foundation for all the learning. Sometimes at our schools, there's a a carnival of teachers. You get one one day, one the next day, one for half the day. And yes, they're really understaffed, but sometimes they do it on purpose for the students to experience different teaching styles. And one teacher is better at math and one teacher... when all that happens is that the kids shut down because it's an unknown teacher and I'm talking primary school here, even even though it's potentially even more valid for teenagers. We learn from who we are attached to.

Anna

Yeah, you remember the teachers.

Olga

I still get attached to my tutors and facilitators. And when there's a new one, I've not got the same connection. Give me my yeah, give me my tutor back. Yeah, yeah. I'm open to learning from them and I'm 36.

Anna

You know, yeah, yeah, definitely. But we saw that really clearly, actually in our school when we had new staff come in at the beginning of every term, the staff would sort of offer lots of different classes that the kids had brainstormed the term before and things they wanted to do. Like you know it might be they wanted to learn how to make rockets or they wanted to do vegetable growing in the garden or whatever it might be. They had sort of come up with all the ideas and then the staff sort of made like a buffet almost you know in front of them and said, "Here's the options for this next I think about 8 weeks. Pick anything you'd like to do or don't pick, anything is fine." And in that process when we had new stuff come in where the kids hadn't already got that relationship with them and weren't really attached to them, those new staff didn't have a chance. They just because they could have offered the most interesting class, the kids wouldn't pick it until they knew them, until they trusted them. Whereas for those of us who've been there from the start and had already built that foundation of relationship, I mean we could have offered anything and they would have said yeah, we'll do it because they just wanted to spend time with us. It was really obvious how important the relationship was when you saw it in that setting as well. And I used to say to my new staff, don't panic, don't worry, just play with them. Just play. Just be there. Just, you know by next term it will be a different way, it will come, yeah. And even that foundation is so much different to like a a teacher coming in and making "OK, time to learn." Just shortcutting all that groundwork, basically.

Anna

Umm yeah. It makes it so much harder to teach and for the kids to learn, doesn't it? If they don't know who they're actually learning with. And it also just it becomes not a partnership anymore. It's it's an authority figure, isn't it? Who's telling them what to learn? Telling them how to learn it? Whereas we're taking away and and putting the student and the staff member, the adult in the environment as equal, which can be very challenging as well for adults coming into the environment.

Olga

I can imagine.

Anna

It's a lot of unlearning for us to do as well, but I think that's also why it's so beautiful because you know, the kids are being completely self-directed and they're learning and actually alongside them, the adults and the environment are doing the same. They're learning and they're making mistakes and they've got the freedom to do that. You know, as I'm not gonna come down on them like a tonne of bricks if they make a mistake. We're just gonna do what we do with the kids and talk about it and work out what did work, what didn't work, how we wanna go forwards. And I think modelling that to the students was really, really powerful, especially for kids who had never seen at home maybe or in in any environment, never seen it. They didn't have anything to sort of, you know, relate it to or compare it to. So seeing adults doing that and we were really open about when we did make a mistake or if they asked us something we had no clue about, you know, we'd show them what we'd do. Well, we're going to go look it up on the Internet or we're going to ring a friend and or actually my dad is an amazing scientist. I'm gonna ring my dad and ask him if he knows how this works in the body or whatever it might be and just sort of show them that we're not all powerful. We don't know it all. We know that we're learning with them.

Olga

Yes, because if you think your job is to hold on to that place of being respected by all means that then you will not want to show ignorance, then that's threatening or to show that you are still learning.

Anna

Yeah and I think in an in an Asian culture that was even more so the case and and the parents sort of wanted us to be that authority figure and even things like you know, not divulging everything about their child and what they were doing at school to the parents was like mind blowing for the parents because they just thought, "Why? Why can't you tell us?" And we'd say, "Well we're just going to check with so and so if if he's happy for us to share something that happened today." And they'll just be like, "Wow, OK do you really need to do that? Can't you just tell us, you're the teacher. You know we're paying the money for this. Can't you just tell us." So that was yeah, topsy turvy I guess for the that culture as well. But also here I think, isn't it?

Olga

With respect, only goes one way: upwards. To the elders.

Joe

What kind of feedback would you get from the parents after they've been there for a while?

Anna

Really excellent feedback, but we had to really invest in building relationship with them as well and getting them on board. Yeah. So I think by the end of my time at the school, I was spending probably 50%, maybe 60% of my time with the parents giving them the opportunity to ask lots of questions. We did sort of book clubs together where we'd go for a book together. A.S. Neill's book on Summerhill was a good one and that had been translated into their language as well. And I had an open door policy for parents as well. So they did, they could come in and talk to me at any time. And I think that made the biggest difference because it was so different to what they were used to. You know they're sending their child off to this place. They're trusting us. If they can't see what what's happening, that's really scary. And when people are scared, it gets worse and worse, isn't it? It starts building up into this big ohh, what's happening? Are they not eating their lunch? Are they just sitting in front of a screen all day? What are they doing all day? And the child will come back and they'll say, " What did you do?" "Just played." You know they weren't telling them all the details of everything they did that day and you parents will just start to worry and really panic actually, and think

Anna

they're not learning. What are we doing here? This is wasting time. They're not learning. And sometimes kids would get a little bit more, I don't know a better word than sort of feral, you know, they'd get a little bit more wild and a bit more free with their expression of their emotions, with their behaviour, with their choices that they made daily. And it would quite often go through a phase like that. And then they'd start to reel it in and decide actually how they wanted to act and how they, like, be more intentional. But it was quite a a journey that the child would go on. And with that, the parents, there would be various levels of anxiety. And the only cure for that was to spend time with them and to let them come in and to let them see and to tell them stories of things that the students were happy for us to share. And that was really important, I think. But that takes a lot of time. Yeah. In mainstream school, that's not possible.

Joe

I was going to say it's like 2 schools basically, isn't it? Yeah, school for the children, school for the parents.

Olga

But the legacy you probably have left there.

Anna

I hope so.

Olga

Wow. Yeah, for the children and for their future families. Wow, with the same happens here. There will be like the last day of the term before Christmas. And all kids do is like, well, I know with my son's school they will play and they will watch a movie and eat popcorn and inevitably some parents will be like, well, that's a lot of learning happening. Inevitably, yeah, what you said was so important for me to hear. When we stop separating, this is learning and this is not learning because still very much learning is this idea of a sitting down with a book.

Anna

And accomplishing something very measurable.

Olga

Yes.

Joe

They pick that up really quickly, don't they? In school, I think.

Olga

Yeah, When I'm finished with the Stone Age, that's it. Done. Yeah, off to the Greeks.

Anna

Ticked off? Yeah, yeah. And it's often very unconnected to life, isn't it? It's just in that one hour we're going to talk about Romans or whatever it might be, and and then it's never mentioned until next week. At the same time. It's just information. It's just information a lot of the time.

Joe

Yeah.

Anna

I mean, there are wonderful teachers who can bring topics to life and really apply it to life in mainstream education. It's not to say that it's all like that at all. My son's got a wonderful teacher at the moment, which is who I'm really grateful for, and she brings things to life and she really, you know, embeds a topic into everything they do and throughout the whole day. But I think it's really hard for teachers to do that in the system.

Olga

Because they've got the curriculum.

Anna

And she's lucky she's still single. She doesn't go home and have a whole family to look after, so she probably spends hours planning and preparing, but it's not the norm. I don't think it is.

Olga

Ohh, well, why now? I must say all the questions we're prepared kind of went out of the window. What you're saying is amazing.

Joe

It's so important, this is topic, it's really important, so important I think for people to hear it, just to have an opening to and see what can happen.

Anna

I think the one of the barriers is that people sometimes just don't know there's another option, do they? Or they've never experienced it themselves. No one's ever told them they've never seen it. It's just, yeah, yeah, my child, at 5 we'll go to to mainstream school and that's that. Of course you will. There's no other option. Yeah, I'm very grateful that, you know, I grew up with that experience. So I knew there was always another option. But not everyone does know and and I think that's really important what you guys are doing to actually spread the word that there, there are different ways of educating.

Olga

Oh thank you. We're trying and the schools are crumbling, and it's not just the funding it's they just as you said the dedicated teacher is able to be so dedicated because she is single. You know, basically being a full time dedicated teacher is nearly incompatible with having a family.

Anna

And that's really sad, isn't it?

Joe

Are you going to ask your question, Olga?

Olga

Yes. So yes, we've got this our traditional wrap up question. What is something that you do for play?

Anna

Ohh, that's a good question. Well, I've got better at this I think over the years because I wasn't very good at it. It was all focused on playing with my children and doing what they wanted to do. But over the last few years, I've been really intentional about this and my ideal place of being able to play and just be in my happy place is hanging in a hammock in the woods with my book. I absolutely love that. If somebody sort of says what, you know, she's anything to do today, what would you do? That would be it. I love my hammock and I love the words, I love the sound, I love the smells, I love the light that comes through. And I love reading. That would be my ideal pleasure.

Olga

Thank you so much.

Joe

Anna, alright, thanks Anna. Thank you.

Anna

Thank you for talking to me, it's lovely.